Sister's memories **trigger EA PA VA***

[lonelylife]

Hi mary jane,
I think it's easy to seem loving when one is old. There was some kind of joke a comedian told once, it said when old people suddenly start going to church more it's because they're practicing for their finals. Similarly, when they get old they get lonely and they're not so tough and strong anymore, and they're afraid of death and what they fear may await them knowing that they were not nice parents. So often they try to look contrite. My question is, why when they had a lifetime to be contrite, why wait until the hour is late and time has caught up with them to appear contrite. I think my perspective is different because my mother always specialized in being "sorry" and in pretending to be so sweet. So now that she's old it doesn't look any different. Also she's been "about to die", or implied as much, since at least her early 60's, and yet she is still here (and all my sibs are dead). So the sweet routine is for me, just more of the same, and more manipulation, and once again all about their narcissistic need to have someone rally around them and look out for them, and isn't really because they care about me. But that's just been my experience. I think they also know they look feeble and pitiful and old, and they play on that too, just as when they were young they were all bluster and never thought about a day when they would be old and feeble and having done all the harm they so freely and carelessly did.

[maggiegirl]

Your mother is in her early 60s and is about to die! Ha! I am in my early 60s and I am going to go for a three mile run tomorrow. It took months to get to this point because of my health problems, but I did it. What a manipulator she is!

[lonelylife]

Hi maggiegirl,
No it's been since her 60's that she's claimed she was about to die. Or sometimes she'd tried to just imply it and hint at it. She's 85 now. When she first got arthritis she tried to imply she thought it was "something else that was going to kill her" and when they said it was arthritis, then it was "a different type that was going to kill her" somehow. It was all very weird. She is indeed totally manipulative, and also a hypochondriac along with being totally insane. Just wanted to use the little guy in the sunglasses. The caption says geek but to me he looks like a guy in total amazement, out in the sun.

[mary jane]

lonelylife, thanks for your words. I always thought my sisters never really addressed it all... I know I go another path but only because I have to. it doesn't feel like I succeed in ever being ok... but I try.
I relate to your feelings about your parents: thinking one of them is ok and then realizing how damaging that parent really is. I think one needs to believe in something as a child. you don't understand it yet, you do not reflect on it. you couldn't survive knowing that one treats you badly as well. especially with manipulation it's hard to look behind it. my father is an excellent manipulator.

My father's abuse was always obvious to me--it took me 40 years to realize my mother was just as unhinged.

yeah... in my case my mother's screaming and hating is very obvious, too. she always took the blame when in fact my father controlled, manipulated and insulted her and probably us (kids) as well. some of the abuse is just so hidden it's hard to even realize!! I did not as a child. now I only have a feeling and from what I know... I cannot believe he's good.
thanks for sharing your experiences! glad you managed to get away. well done.

dear abuse warrior, your story is very sad. I appreciate so much your effort of writing all this! I know it must have been painful to accept that your father was so damaging to you. it is unacceptable that his church and reputation is/ was more important to him as his own child. it honors you that you understand his motives, however there is no doubt they are wrong and selfish. growing up in an abusive environment always seems to me like being brain washed. that's why most people never really get free and even continue the abuse with their own children. It's wonderful you understood and stopped it. yes, your husband sounds wonderful. it's amazing he did that for you!! it takes lots of courage to do that!

In answer to your question about your own father, I guess I would say that every situation is different. If he still says nothing babd happened and thinks you are lying then he is in denial because of his own guilt.

maybe I already explained this in my last post. he's not saying nothing bad happened. he just acts as though everything's fine. I cannot talk to him. while he used to get angry back then or ignored me for days he'd now simply remain silent and then go back to chit chat.

However, since you and I are both here at isurvive, I think it is pretty safe to say that they failed. No child deserves abuse and no adult who is really a good person would allow it to happen.

amen. I know you're right and it helps so much to be reminded of this. so yes, your story helped and your interest in my story is touching. thank you.


old, nice parents....
it becomes clear how this is just another form of manipulation when I read your posts. lonelylife, your mother really already used this when she wasn't even old or sick. glad you looked behind that and didn't let her continue! with my father it's different he really is and always was old. could be my grandfather in fact. he only started to change when he got really ill and weak. it seems he nearly worked himself into his grave and ignored all warnings, such as a heart attack. I really think he worked so he didn't have to think and face things. I think I believe him he's sorry (though he doesn't say it because I never confronted him) but it's true there's no use for me now. it cannot be undone what they did and therefore I cannot stay in touch with them.
but it hurts so much. and I know if I have to meet them I will collapse and be 'the nice girl' so I must not meet them!!

thank you so so much for reminding me... I know you're right. I know I what I have to do but I cannot trust myself... if I feel a little bit better I will think it's ok for me to contact them again... I should know better by now but I don't.

[lonelylife]

Hi mary jane,
If he's truly sorry he would acknowledge everything fully and completely I think. "Sorry" can be just a word if there isn't anything more substantive behind it. My mother "apologized" when pressed, and even the way she did it was empty. "I'm sorry if I did anything wrong".

maybe I already explained this in my last post. he's not saying nothing bad happened. he just acts as though everything's fine. I cannot talk to him. while he used to get angry back then or ignored me for days he'd now simply remain silent and then go back to chit chat.

I think this is all the same thing. Whatever form their denial takes, whether it's by commission or omission, it's still all the same in that it's designed to pretend and to divert and to dismiss things which a parent is supposed to safeguard their children from.

I don't know how good I was at fully figuring her out since it took me the better part of my life to do it. 40 years, and I didn't even get away until 42 and am 47 now. So all that time wasted on BS. But one of her chief methods was isolation, so I would have felt without others (other than my h and child) if I had gotten away. It's just too bad, she had the perfect catch 22--alone with her and because of her, and feeling like I would have been alone without her. Once I got away though, that's been the only peace I've had. I'd rather be alone and in peace than around her and controlled and manipulated, while she lives in lies and denial and plays her "my life must be more special somehow than yours" game. Not to mention the "I've won" game, where she does all her dirt and yet gets to continue it and still try to make a fool out of me until she leaves this world. She tries for full domination and gets some kind of sick satisfaction out of thinking someone too stupid, and herself to special, for them to ever be able to live without her. Well who died and made her king of the world? She's just some individual just like all the other individuals in the world, and in fact she's even lesser so because she didn't even have the sense to know how to act towards her own children.

[dreamykitten]

Mary Jane, I don't know how much of my story you have read, especially the posts about denial, but I have sort of a related situation. I remember things as they happened, just like I remember things not related to abuse.

My sister, on the other hand, thinks our childhood was wonderful.

She is 9 years older than me.

She does have a lot of anxiety.

I don't know if one day she is going to start recovering memories or if she really didn't experience the same things that I did.

[lonelylife]

Hi,
I forgot to mention something I meant to add in my reply. You mentioned earlier

I think I need to forgive and move on...

and there are a number of options to choose from surrounding this and you can choose any of them based on your own needs/feelings--

1) first I will state that I personally choose not to forgive. That is one option. I believe there is a need for the abuser to demonstrate they truly know there is something to be forgiven for, that they need to have stopped their abuse willingly and voluntarily, and I can not forgive people who only stopped abusing me by attrition--they became too old to continue, or their access to me changed so they had to stop. If they had a choice and were still young, it would still be business as usual. And like with my mother, she will always try to run your life into the ground if she gets even an inch of daylight, to this day.
2) others choose to forgive but that doesn't mean that one then has to put oneself back in harm's way, back around toxic people-- and thus many who forgive do so from a distance.

Whichever way is right for you, just remember forgiveness does not mean that you then have to resume putting yourself around your abusers. And not forgiving doesn't mean you are doing anything outside what you need either. Either way is fine and there is no right way. We do not have to place ourselves in the path of abuse is the only thing that matters because we deserve peace and healthy relationships with caring people.

[mary jane]

sorry I'm only replying now. I sometimes find it hard to write...when it's about my own story.
please know I appreciate your posts so much!!
I've been thinking about your words and tried to make them stick in my consciousness. if they were sorry I'd be allowed to talk about things - but they make me shut up as soon as I criticize them. if my mother wanted me to visit because she cares about me she wouldn't make me do things I hate (I once suggested going to cinema - she reacted as though my suggestion was really stupid! we went shopping instead which I hate and she loves, saying she needed to buy me new shoes urgently!). If they cared about me they'd reply to my mail which was written in my mother's style: two cold and careless sentences saying I won't visit them (no explanation).

I know how annoying those empty words and phrases are: 'how are you' 'what are you up to'? then they'd say 'what's the matter, we DID ask you'. but you didn't really.

lonelylife, you still have to acknowledge how great it is to have understood your mother's manipulation! I am so so sorry you didn't earlier but then it was when you could do it and therefore it was right for you. it is so very difficult to understand that sort of manipulation and abuse. they are our parents. it's very painful to admit. it has consequences. you cannot go back. I think it's great you did it. most people never change or understand. you freed yourself in the end!
I needed the help of a friend to understand what my family really was like. I could not see it.
keep sharing about your mother. maybe all those thoughts are like poison inside of you and you need to get it out! I think I mentioned before that because it's about family you're never allowed to talk about it. not as a kid and not as an adult (because you're supposed to move on and be ok). but we do need to get it out and be heard.

those two ways of dealing with it make a lot of sense.

If they had a choice and were still young, it would still be business as usual.

I will come back and read this thread if I intend to contact my parents again. I'm sure it will help remind me of all the reasons.

dreamykitten, I'm not sure I read your story - I don't want to mix it up - can I read it somewhere on the old forum?
I think some people can keep the past and the pain inside for a lifetime... I don't know why/ how it's not affecting them as much as you and me... your sister certainly experienced things differently but it must have been abusive nonetheless...!?
my mother never addressed her past and she turned it into abuse and frustration.
I don't know why some become abuser and some need to work through things....

[dreamykitten]

Yes, my story is on the old forum.

Take care.

[Silent]

even if they show the outward appearances of being "okay", to whatever extent they are still in denial, as in dealing with your parents still, or in minimizing/not facing all of their abuse, and being people-pleasers to the exclusion of themselves, they really probably aren't as okay as they seem. Many in varying degrees of denial may look and function okay but the way they avoid or "max out" in healing without ever addressing the tough stuff can indicate otherwise. I think in the steps that you yourself are showing to fully explore and address and face your healing, you yourself are taking real strides at being truly okay and finding real and lasting peace. .

I really agree with this actually. They may well be ok but they may have hidden stuff going on. I know I always looked like the one who was "fine". I was the eldest and the responsible people pleasing one. And had a hidden ed, SI, terrible self hatred and was constantly depersonalised or derealised.

What I wanted to say is that the way you are dealing with this is braver and stronger than your eldest sister. I hope you can celebrate that strength in you.
I am the only one to deal with the past head on now out of my siblings and messed up as I am I see a possibility of change whereas I see their lives staying stgnant becasue of it.

I am so sorry you went through all of this and so sorry you are sitting with the consequences. What you were exposed to was terribly wrong.
I am so glad you have a sister who can be your memory for you and can support you through this.

It is absolutely OK to take care of yourself and break off contact if you need to.
I think it always leave a big hole but the alternative can be worse and we can find deserving people to help fill that hole that is left behind.

I found putting down concrete boundaries was the only way I could survive any contact. I ignored the family "rules" (and even the rules of what would be considered proper behaviour in the outside world) and stopped waiting for acknowledgment or validation or change. That just kept re injuring me.
My father died and I am sorry to say but it was mostly a relief and my mother I keep at a distance. I rarely see her. If she starts criticising or attempting to control me I emmediately hang up (tell her why then do it) or remove myself from her company. No long discussions or anything else. It does not stop the behaviour but it has decreased it and she is sometimes a bit tentative. It makes me feel more safe though.
The manipulations dont work on me anymore as I dont play up to them. I speak out or leave. It is a really really tough thing to do when it is the opposite of how we have been trained but it is powerful. It took me a long long time and lots of t to do it.

I wish you lots of luck working out what is best for you.
Take care.