Kokoschka says...

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Kokoschka
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Posts: 735
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:01 am

Re: Kokoschka says...

Post by Kokoschka »

Hi Coconuts,
Yeah, end of March and beginning of April here on the Mediterranean is really crazy, too hot for the season, too cold for the season.

Hope you and daughter are doing better and that the coming trip with the young ladies will be the real thing - mother & daughters quality time!! But the way you handle it all, l'm sure you three will have a great time together.

Other than that l'm still deep, down, below, under, whatever, inside the bloody trenches. If l weren't such a party-pooper l'd suggest l pocket-ride with you🌝😫😉🙄🥴

Have a safe trip and a wonderful time💐🙏 Kokoschka
..but god bless the child that's got his own... (Billie Holiday)
coconuts
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Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:34 am

Re: Kokoschka says...

Post by coconuts »

Oh you are so very welcome to pocket ride along. I will share our adventures as i planned this so we arent just running around like crazy. Plan on just sorta taking it easy and having fun. Still gotta look up some fun to do.

Sending you a jar of fireflies to have with you down there in the trenches. Each little light, represents a spark of hope.

Coconuts
Be the Light 🌟 in someone's night.
Crow
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Posts: 1434
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:22 pm

Re: Kokoschka says...

Post by Crow »

Hi Kokoschka,

I hope you're doing okay.
I have been wanting to message you for nearly 2 months now, but have been apprehensive. However, following a recent 'discussion' on another member's thread following a misjudgement on my part, I have realised that it is healthy to have these discussions, or at least, for me to have a voice and speak up.
(I tried to be subtle and post about it in other stand alone posts, and in poetry, but I need to be brave and be politely direct.)

I'm going to make myself really vulnerable here, and I've considered how this may make me look, and I have to follow my feelings and my own history with keeping things to myself.

On Feb 13th I posted on your thread, and had no response, but that was not an issue to me at all. Then you posted a lengthy post on the 15th that included you feeling ignored and people ignoring your posts, and how you felt about it.
I then posted a reply apologising if I had ignored you in error - which clearly I hadn't but trauma tells me to apologise anyway (and arguably if anyone ignored anyone, it could be said to have been the other way around). And you replied... viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10610&start=70#p231469
That seemed very blunt and confusing to me, so I stepped back and processed that confusion away from the forum.
You last posted on my thread on Feb 12th - viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10475&start=120#p231240
in response to my posting, and I notice that I didn't directly reply to that comment (it didn't look as if I needed to). So all I can assume is that because I didn't have a response to your post on your thread on the 13th, and your comment about "no answer is also an answer", is that you've taken offence and are just ignoring me and treating me as if I don't exist on this forum at all. You continue to post on other members' threads from what I affectionately called 'our group' (in my mind) yet, since that last comment to me on your thread, I don't seem to exist to you.

You know what? It hurts. It hurts to be ignored, and you know how that feels because of your childhood, and because of your posts over the months about feeling ignored.
We here have all been ignored, sidelined, excluded and abused in many different ways, and this was supposed to be a safe space to share and support each other. Unfortunately I find this place another space that is not totally safe for me anymore.

I'm just confused as to why so suddenly back in early February you ceased interacting with me. After all of the care, support, and I thought, genuine concern and even friendship you gave me over the six months we had been regularly interacting, how and why you suddenly stopped that... as if I don't matter... as if I am invisible.
I took a two week break from isurvive before I realised that this was happening, and I came back with a new approach - to not be as active and balance real life with this online support. I came back though to find change... change that has caused me so much upset the past nearly two months.

Kokoschka... can I ask why? Why does it appear that you are ignoring me? What do you think I have done?

Please see this as a respectful post to outline how I feel... how it all looks to me... to seek an answer to ease the hurt.
Please... it's all I ask.
I'm not asking for things to be as they were. You don't even have to engage with me again. But I'd like to know what you think I have done that is so wrong.


Thank you.

Crow

(I don't think I am breaching any guidelines here.)
A little boy hides in an adult's disguise.
Quote taken from an original poem that I have written.
Kokoschka
Member
Posts: 735
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:01 am

Re: Kokoschka says...

Post by Kokoschka »

Hello Crow,
I'm really sorry you are feeling this way. I never set out to hurt you and l think your post is really brave and courageous. Right, it's not easy to expose our feelings, it does make us vulnerable but l'm not the kind to trample on anybody's feelings, on the contrary, l appreciate the gesture.

l really don't recall the entire story. But after willingly corresponding with you, trying to help as best l knew, I was really, really hurt and amazed at you telling me that you needed to use your time to concentrate on posts MORE RELEVANT to your specific needs (sort of l think...) and that therefore and because your wife thought that you spent too much time here anyway, you wouldn't be replying as much (to my posts...) in the future. And that l shouldn't take offense. But l did and replied that no answer is also an answer.

It's true. I have a HUGE, even ENORMOUS problem with being ignored. I'd say it's the root of all evil in my case so l sure know what it feels like. My mother prided herself on "killing people with indifference". I never mastered her skills so I wasn't ignoring you on purpose, l was simply hurt!

I'm sorry but l don't recall seeing a later post from you addressed directly to me (?) or l would have certainly replied.

Kokoschka
..but god bless the child that's got his own... (Billie Holiday)
Chessgirl
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Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:45 pm

Re: Kokoschka says...

Post by Chessgirl »

Reading along. I did not realize any of this took place. Crow, like kokoschka said, your post was very brave. I admire you for your honesty and courage. I can understand being hurt about being ignored. I have not pointed it out to any of the members here, but I’ve been ignored by a few people and it’s really stung. I get confused and it keeps me up at night wondering what I have said or done to offend that person or people. I do realize that sometimes people simply don’t mean to ignore me, but it’s still confusing and hurtful. I have not responded to people before for various reasons sometimes even forgetfulness. I have to remind myself that that happens with all of us occasionally too. Just wanted to say I admire you both so much. I think it’s great you are both expressing your feelings and trying to understand where each other are coming from. I consider you both dear friends and I don’t believe either of you would ever intentionally hurt anyone. I think you are both so strong and admirable!
Chessgirl
Crow
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Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:22 pm

Re: Kokoschka says...

Post by Crow »

Hi Kokoschka,

Firstly, just to mention, I find the phrase "I'm sorry you're feeling this way" rather triggering.
Kokoschka wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:03 pm I'm really sorry you are feeling this way.
Not suggetsing you said that on purpose, but just letting you know. It's a phrase that is typical of gaslighters and I've heard it too many times from abusive people. Again, just informing you of this, not suggetsing that you are doing that on purpose whatsoever.
Kokoschka wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:03 pm I was really, really hurt and amazed at you telling me that you needed to use your time to concentrate on posts MORE RELEVANT to your specific needs (sort of l think...) and that therefore and because your wife thought that you spent too much time here anyway, you wouldn't be replying as much (to my posts...) in the future. And that l shouldn't take offense. But l did and replied that no answer is also an answer.
Okay, so let's clarify this one. I included the link so that you could review my post. I was telling you that I needed to take time away and concentrate on more relevant posts... that I can see may look like I was saying yours were not relevant, but what I meant was that at that time where my whole world was imploding and my family and I were (and still are) facing financial struggles, my mental health had declined severely, and life was (and still is) a mess, that I needed to look after me. Looking after me first is a new concept, and as such I had to take a few weeks away. I wasn't suggesting your posts weren't relevant at all. So when you say
Kokoschka wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:03 pm you wouldn't be replying as much (to my posts...) in the future.
that isn't exactly what I wrote when you look at the link to my post.
The thing is, is that I have not been as active at all, and what gets me is that you went from regular interaction with me, to nothing... without a word. (And I have posted some difficult stuff since too that usually you would reply to, but you hadn't.) I've not posted to you since because I have been trying to work out (blindly) how to navigate all of this!

So you say...
Kokoschka wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:03 pm And that l shouldn't take offense. But l did and replied that no answer is also an answer.
that doesn't help me in what you mean by that statement... what does that mean?
Kokoschka wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:03 pmMy mother prided herself on "killing people with indifference". I never mastered her skills so I wasn't ignoring you on purpose, l was simply hurt!
If you were hurt about something I'd said, please next time just say and try to clarify... because from where I am standing it looks like you were ignoring me when you check in and post on the rest of 'our group' threads, and not mine. (Although obviously no one is obligated to post or reply to anyone, but with the regular interaction suddenly stopping it painted a negative picture.)

I'm glad that I have approached this and asked the question of you finally. In my mind the evidence on the forum speaks volumes, but maybe there has been in part some misunderstandings along the way too. Truth is, neither of us will truly know, but I'm glad I raised it.

Oh, and the only reason I quote is for accuracy purposes...

Crow
A little boy hides in an adult's disguise.
Quote taken from an original poem that I have written.
Kokoschka
Member
Posts: 735
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:01 am

Re: Kokoschka says...

Post by Kokoschka »

Hi Crow,
I still can't fully understand why gaslighting even though l looked it up and l have seen that movie it refers to.
But anyway, there was no hidden intention behind that sentence or anything else l wrote. Maybe l just used the one we often use for each other here when addressing our problems.

I simply stopped commenting on your threads because l felt hurt ( and you didn't comment on mine either...).

Please, don't look for some kind of hidden agenda here, any intentions behind my words. There isn't. None of us is here for no reason, we all have our issues and in this case l felt hurt and took offense. Period. Yes, maybe l should have said something but l didn't know what the forum rules are in this case and besides, there's one thing l don't do when l feel rejected, l don't come asking why.

Kokoschka
..but god bless the child that's got his own... (Billie Holiday)
dancingfish
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Posts: 1303
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:39 pm

Re: Kokoschka says...

Post by dancingfish »

Just wanted to drop by as I haven't in a while (and thought I had, I am sorry!) - sending you care and support, dear Kokoschka. :) Sounds like it's been a tricky time, of late. That melancholy of spirit is a difficult one.

Glad to see you and Crow discussing with each other, it can be difficult and brave to do! (I don't want to interrupt, but can't ignore it either!)

Simply sitting with you if you'd like some company. Agree that finding friends is harder as we're older, somehow - choosing different life paths seems to not help either. Still, there are so many people out there. And our circumstances can change - I'm still annoyed when I'm convinced a thing is so, and life shows me I'm not necessarily right. :lol:

Take care my dear, much caring to you! And a chin scritch for each of your kitties who'd like one. :D
Kokoschka
Member
Posts: 735
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:01 am

Re: Kokoschka says...

Post by Kokoschka »

Morning Crow,
I just realized that my last sentence might be misunderstood, as if l'm taking a dig at you, which is definitely not the case. I just wanted to explain WHY l didn't bring this up with you myself. And that is why l said before that l find your gesture very brave.

Regardless, please understand that l felt hurt by your words and that it is important to me that my feelings are validated here as well.

I suggest we bury the hatchet and smoke a peace pipe instead, is that ok?

Kokoschka
..but god bless the child that's got his own... (Billie Holiday)
coconuts
Member
Posts: 5839
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:34 am

Re: Kokoschka says...

Post by coconuts »

You all are so brave. I struggle with any form of confrontation. I end up running away from it. Appeasing the other person, you know any number of things that really arent that efficient.

Kokoschka gaslighting is just a term that was sort of born from that movie. The idea that a person say things in a way that makes everything the other persons fault or that it makes the other person seem like the "crazy" one. Many socially acceptable terms and phrases are common. That phrase can be a passive way to im sorry without actually being sorry. Most people dont realize it can come off that way. Lovely how abuse and trauma makes us all analyze every word for some hidden intent. Sure it all means something judgemental. I know i do it.

Its a bit sad that feelings were hurt here. I am sad for both of you. But i do hope you both know how dearly i care for you. Im glad crow chose to address this rather than let it stew. I do hope there can be a resolution. This should feel like a safe place for all.

Coconuts
Be the Light 🌟 in someone's night.
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